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 Max 
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Police shooting
I know this happens all the time, but this one is bugging the hell out of me. I spent my awkward adolescence in a very conservative place called Coronado, which is a small Island off of downtown San Diego. Coronado has the reputation of having bored cops with nothing better to do than pester people they don't like, and also as a place to send cops that need to cool off a little. I got 4 tickets in the 2 years that I drove there. I've had 1 ticket in the 8 years since then.
Yesterday, an off-duty cop from Coronado was in San Diego (out of his jurisdiction) and took it upon himself to follow San Diego starting linebacker Steve Foley 20 minutes home due to driving 90 on the freeway. The officer was out of uniform and in his own vehicle. He tried to pull Foley over a few times. Would you pull over for an unmarked car, especially if you were a bit of a celebrity? When they finally reached Foley's house, the officer said that Foley reached for his waistband, so the cop shot him 6 times. The few articles I can find on it, spin it towards the officer's side, which may be a possibility, but from what I know about Coronado cops, I'm extremely skeptical.
I spent two years doing all the photo developing for the San Diego Crime Lab. Police shootings go on all the time, and are very seldomly reported. I saw a 13 year old kid with 26 bullets in him. There was a legendary homeless man here that was shot because he had a stick that looked like a gun.
Does this happen in your neck of the woods, or is it just a southern California thing? [ posted by Max at 09/04/2006 12:35:39 PM ] [ trackback ]
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Threaded Responses [ bottom ]
 | luster [email] said at 2:22 PM 09-04-2006:
thats crazy... i dont know about police shootings but i know alot of stuff happens around here we dont hear about. the other day my sister said she over heard some people talking about two girls getting decapitated while riding their bikes on the canal. i cant believe that didnt make the news...
that sounds like a dream job to work for a crime lab. it must have been really exciting. |
 | max [email] said at 3:17 PM 09-04-2006:
Funny you should mention dreams. My nightmares have been far more graphic since that job. I saw pictures from every homicide, scuicide, autopsy, fatal car crash, drug bust, etc for two years. I worry a little about having all those images in my head. Most didn't bug me. The ones that disturbed me were the ones that seemed to be helpless in the situation, such as the children. I even saw the aftermath of a city worker who went through one of theose huge tree grinder, wood chipper things. |
 | amanda [email] said at 4:31 PM 09-04-2006:
Yep. Same here. I eventually reached the point where I could be eating a bowl of chili while printing autopsy photos of a dude having his skull opened up, but the things that always bothered me were photos of the inside of people's houses when I'd get halfway through the roll and realize that a child was living there, amid all of the meth on the table/squalor/rats.
The worst I ever had to do were the results of a vehicle colliding with a train. The wood chipper sounds significantly worse. |
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| max [email] said at 4:32 PM 09-04-2006:
A pile of loose meat and flannel. Glad to have your odd self back on here making me feel normal again. |
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| amanda [email] said at 4:39 PM 09-04-2006:
You know, the resiliency of flannel never ceases to boggle my mind.
"The touch/the feel/of cotton/and the ability to withstand even the most gruesome thrasher blade accident" |
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| luster [email] said at 6:19 PM 09-04-2006:
yeesh! i guess that would be pretty nasty. i remember going to the death museum, i think it was back in san diego actually and they had a bunch of photos like that. the only one i remember though was of a guy who wrapped his car around a light pole and the force of being tossed out of his car threw him up into the telephone wires. it was pretty intense to see how much of an impact that must of been.
i wouldnt want to see that woodchipper picture. |
 | anthony [email] said at 2:46 PM 09-04-2006:
Regardless of whether or not this cop should have even been there or not, what would you do if someone was reaching into their waistband? |
 | evan [email] said at 3:24 PM 09-04-2006:
probably NOT shoot them six times before seeing a weapon of any sort. are you trying to say this was justified? |
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| anthony [email] said at 7:40 PM 09-04-2006:
I'm not trying to say that this is justified. What I was merely trying to point out was how regardless of the circumstances, some of the responses give the impression that their authors would have acted otherwise given the exact same situation. |
 | kiche [email] said at 1:01 PM 09-05-2006:
what the fuck are you talking about?
you were trying to point out something about the other responses? take another look at the responses, my friend. your above statement was the second response. the only response before you is from luster, who talks about how "crazy stuff" happens that doesn't make the news and then states that working in a crime lab must be a "dream job".
all of the responses on here about how fucked up this is are in response to your knee jerk defense of this officer.
i guess pointing this out to you, though, makes me a "joke" and "no different than o'reilly" or whatever. |
 | angie [email] said at 3:05 PM 09-05-2006:
seriously, when I'm walking home late at night by myself - I put my keys in between my fingers, and ball up my fist. I jump at any noise around me...
Whats my point in saying this? When I feel threatened, I go overboard in ways to make myself feel protected - and I wouldn't be suprised if I accidently screamed and started punching at some innocent person who just happened to be crossing my path and making me feel particularly on edge.
I'm not saying that it justifies those actions, but I find it humorous that people are acting like it is sooo uncommon for people to "jump the gun" when it comes to their own safety.
Disregard race in this entire scenario, it is someone who acted out [albeit, too soon and therefor royally fucking up] on what they thought was going to be the worst-case scenario.
and quit calling people racists so easily, because it's offensive and the more often it's done the more it devalues the term. |
 | abby [email] said at 3:44 PM 09-06-2006:
nobody would get robbed or anything if they would jsut relax a little bit. |
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| kiche [email] said at 3:48 PM 09-06-2006:
so because you are safety minded, you wouldn't be suspicious of someone in a civilian car and clothes trying to pull you over while claiming they were a cop?
maybe you aren't so safety minded. |
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| max [email] said at 3:28 PM 09-04-2006:
I hear what you're saying. Unfortunately, the circumstance is so vague. It's so easy to say that his hand was "near his waistband." We're not sure if the cop even identified himself as a police officer. I would be a little pissed if someone followed me home. |
 | rick [email] said at 3:47 PM 09-04-2006:
Why was he going after this guy to begin with? Because he was going ninety? Even around Boston, I see people sometimes driving ninety on I-93. He was not in jurisdiction and even if he felt it was urgently needed to pull this guy over he should have called for back up or assistance of some kind; there is a great chapter in Blink by Gladwell about the high risk of disproportionate action after a high speed car chase, which, as Max pointed out was not so inexplicable ( I would be very reluctant to just pull over because some guy on the Interstate told me to). |
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| kiche [email] said at 4:17 PM 09-04-2006:
anthony has a point guys, this dude was black after all. |
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| kiche [email] said at 8:11 PM 09-04-2006:
your above statements are fucked up and racist.
we are told a story about a man who while driving his car, has someone in another car (not a police car and not a uniformed oficer) attempt to pull him over and physically approach him. that is unbelievably fucked up behavior.
on top of that this was posted by someone who personally attests to the over aggressiveness of the police department. yet you immediately jump to defend the officer?
it doesn't matter that you found an article that offers new info in retrospect.
i don't think you'd have done the same if the guy who was pulled over was white. otherwise you would have said something to max who has attested to this departments abuse of power in the past. |
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| anthony [email] said at 12:05 PM 09-05-2006:
How are the above statement's racist? It almost seems like yours are racist, unless of course you are an avid football fan. I actually had to look up and see if the deceased was indeed black.
I think you've become the biggest joke on killoggs. Your knee jerk responses are no different than those of Hannity and Colmes, or OReilly. |
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| kiche [email] said at 12:54 PM 09-05-2006:
i can guarantee you, that if this dude was white, we would be having a completely different conversation.
one that acknowledges that if someone in a civilian car tries to get you to pull over, it's completely normal for you to, y'know NOT PULL OVER.
this plain clothesed officer in an unmarked car from another district should have called for a marked car from the district.
this guy's actions are indefensible.
maybe i'm jumping to conclusions calling you a "racist", but i can't think of any other reason why you would think this was ok.
care to enlighten me? |
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| anthony [email] said at 1:34 PM 09-05-2006:
Where in my initial response did I say that shooting an individual is "ok"?
All I said was that in a situation of confrontation, if someone reached into his/her waistband, would you think they were merely trying to display identification.
I'm tired of everyone playing the race card. |
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| evan [email] said at 1:36 PM 09-05-2006:
do you think race didn't play a factor in this?
i asked this lower in this thread but i'll ask it again. how often do you hear about a white guy getting shot for "reaching for his waistband" or having something in his hand? |
 | myriam [email] said at 1:38 PM 09-05-2006:
You don't really hear about cops mistakenly shooting people at all; isn't that half the point of this story in the first place? |
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| anthony [email] said at 2:00 PM 09-05-2006:
I don't think race played a factor in this. It would be one thing if it was a small town where there are very few non-whites, but I doubt this is the case, especially for an area that has a pro football team.
Anyone acting so cavalier in a situation involving an armed individual who fires a warning shot is probably not reaching for proper identification or to scratch an itch. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:10 PM 09-05-2006:
it's interesting that you think such a thing as having a pro-football team will do good things for race relations in a city.
additionally, the cop who shot him is a cop on Coronado island, which is essentially a small town with very few non-whites. beyond that, only about 8% of san diego is white. that's a small percentage of the overall population.
you're readily accepting the account of events published by the police, which i'm not. do you think cops should be blindly trusted? i don't.
and finally, |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:43 PM 09-05-2006:
your above statement was a huge leap.
and it was a pretty quick leap.
i'm not the only person to notice this.
so let me repeat:
maybe i'm jumping to conclusions calling you a "racist", but i can't think of any other reason why you would think this was ok.
care to enlighten me?
take out "ok" with "justifiable".
we were told a story of someone being harrassed while driving.
it turns out the guy harrassing him was an off duty cop.
you immediately identify with the harrasser.
there's something fucked up there anthony. why did you immediately identify with the harrasser? my guess, and it's a good guess, is that race plays a big role here. |
 | josh [email] said at 1:54 PM 09-05-2006:
we were told a story of someone being harrassed while driving.
it turns out the guy harrassing him was an off duty cop.
except we weren't being told the story of someone being harassed while driving.
we were told the story of someone who was being pulled over. thats not the same thing- it's true that the cop was in an unmarked car, but max never said she was harassing steve foley in any way beyond simply trying to make him pull over. max's post didn't even make it clear if the cop had a flashing light or not (because while i might or might not decide to pull over for a sketchy looking dude with a flashing light, i'd NEVER pull over for someone who didn't have at least a flashing light).
i'd also point out that max's account of the incident is pretty biased*. he paints a very negative view of the officer, and coronado police in general. i'd say this slant probably influenced everyone's opinion and comments more than any 'racism' influenced anthony's...
* (and, as information that is probably cleaned 3rd or 2th hand usually is, seemingly incorrect acording to the non-very-conservative New York Times' account... no offense meant to Max - his blog post wasn't intended to be a factual news story, it's a personal blog post) |
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| evan [email] said at 2:01 PM 09-05-2006:
the NY Times simply published the police's acount of things and did none of their own investigating/reporting. |
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| josh [email] said at 2:05 PM 09-05-2006:
i'm assumming it's still more accurate than max's - for example max said the guy was shot 6 times, he wasn't, max said the cop was a male, he wasn't, etc. again, no offense to max, but his post omits a lot of details and is wrong about others, AND begins with a basic bias against cops from that area. |
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| josh [email] said at 2:08 PM 09-05-2006:
"she wasn't" |
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| evan [email] said at 2:14 PM 09-05-2006:
i have yet to see an article that identifies the cop as a female. can you give me a link?
this is from rueters today:
"Police would not confirm how many times Foley was shot, only saying that the officer shot him when he ignored warnings to stop as he approached the officer after getting out of his car near his home after a lengthy chase."
again, nothing about what happened is really clear. most stories on the issue have conflicting information and the cops seem to not have any clear answers either, which always leads to suspicion. |
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| josh [email] said at 2:23 PM 09-05-2006:
"i have yet to see an article that identifies the cop as a female. can you give me a link?"
i was just going by what someone else posted somewhere in this thread. i've only done a cusrory google news search. most of the articles focus on the NFL aspect. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:36 PM 09-05-2006:
what were you saying about 2nd and 3rd hand info?
my only real point in this entire thread is that several people seem to be flatly accepting the (often contradictory) accounts given by the police that puts all of the fault on the driver and promote the idea that this shooting is justified. there's no real reason to believe that it was so i'm remaining skeptical. i want to hear foley's account and the account of the woman who was with him. it seems like this would have come out by now.
oh, and my other point is that people who don't think race plays a factor in most things in america, especially a black man's dealings with police, are delusional. |
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| josh [email] said at 2:55 PM 09-05-2006:
"what were you saying about 2nd and 3rd hand info?"
note that most of my comments on here are like "IF that's true, then", as opposed to some other people's commentary (not specifically yours). i probably misread the gender of the cop amid some of the wildness in this thread.
my only real points are that this thread began with a completely opinionated post and then meandered in to wild meritless accusations of anthony's racism, as well as general comments on unhappiness with police officers in general. and that its crazy that most of the reporting on this is like "man this sucks for the team" |
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| evan [email] said at 2:05 PM 09-05-2006:
additionally, just about everything being reported anywhere is hearsay. how many times was he shot? who pulled him over? how did that person "attempt to stop the vehicle"? no one knows cause the cops aren't saying. |
 | art [email] said at 2:15 PM 09-05-2006:
Is it there if you look for it.
From Channel 10, San Diego:
The Coronado officer followed the vehicle onto Interstate 15 and exited behind the driver at Pomerado Road, Brugos said.
When Foley stopped for a red light, the officer pulled his car alongside and identified himself as an officer, ordering him to pull over, Brugos said.
Foley acknowledged the officer but drove off, stopping a short distance away and getting out of his vehicle, Brugos said.
As Foley approached, the officer identified himself and pulled out his pistol, several times ordering Foley to stop, Brugos said.
Foley continued moving toward the officer, telling him that his handgun was only a "BB gun," then turned and walked back to his vehicle, Brugos said.
A woman in the vehicle, identified as Lisa Maree Gaut, got out and yelled something at the officer, then got back in the vehicle and the two drove off again, Brugos said.
The officer once more followed them, tailing them to Travertine Court and Treadwell Drive, where Foley again stopped, got out of his vehicle and approached the officer, Brugos said.
The officer backed up his car, drove around Foley into a cul-de-sac on Travertine Court, then got out of his car, Brugos said.
Foley kept approaching and Gaut drove behind him, Brugos said.
The officer again identified himself, said his gun was real and fired a warning shot into some bushes, Brugos said.
Gaut then drove toward the officer, who fired two shots at the vehicle, Brugos said.
Foley, still advancing on the officer, allegedly reached into his pants, prompting the officer to shoot him, Brugos said.
When Foley still did not stop, the officer shot him again, bringing him down, Brugos said.
Deputies arrived and took Gaut into custody. She was booked into Las Colinas Detention Facility for women on suspicion of DUI and assault with a deadly weapon, a jail clerk said.
But, since this article favors the police it is clear that the author of the article, the owner of the television station and all of the investors are white, and therefore, racist.
Hell - San Diego himself was a white man so every white man in the city must be racist, too. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:24 PM 09-05-2006:
again, this article contradicts many other articles and it is the irregularities that lead to suspicion. i've read elsewhere that gaut was not arrested or booked. others have apparently read that the officer was a woman. still, "identified himself as a cop"... what does that mean "yo! i'm a cop! stop you're car!" would you stop?
it seems to me like more than anything this man, who is obviously wealthy, possibly thought he was being pulled over by someone who wasn't actually a cop and figured perhaps he was going to be robbed. why else would be accuse the cop of carrying a BB gun? |
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| art [email] said at 2:29 PM 09-05-2006:
why else would be accuse the cop of carrying a BB gun?
Bravado |
 | milky [email] said at 3:40 PM 09-05-2006:
or askin' to get shot...if the person was a carjacker, i don't think this "misunderstanding" would have ended with the driver alive after saying that. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:30 PM 09-05-2006:
can you provide a link to this story because i'm looking through channel 10s website and can't find it. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:39 PM 09-05-2006:
cool, thanks. wonder why it didn't come up when i searched. |
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| anthony [email] said at 2:07 PM 09-05-2006:
Do you even know the race of the officer in question, much less the officer's gender?
Look at you who is making assumptions on race. You are the one who is automatically assuming that this situation fits into the context of black man's oppression by the white man. |
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| kiche [email] said at 2:26 PM 09-05-2006:
again, you evade my question.
also, blacks bare the brunt of pretty serious racism from all races.
i don't remember gender coming into my comments. |
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| anthony [email] said at 2:53 PM 09-05-2006:
why did you immediately identify with the harrasser?
I didn't identify with the harasser. I merely proposed a question that was meant to make you ask yourself if you would have done anything differently should you find yourself in the exact same situation. You still have evaded my initial question on this subject.
I find it alarming how easily you climb your high horse and play judge and jury when you are ignorant of all the facts. |
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| kiche [email] said at 3:14 PM 09-05-2006:
I find it alarming how easily you climb your high horse and play judge and jury when you are ignorant of all the facts.
nice turn around.
but it's still really weird that you would pose the question above, seeing as how the question that would pop into most people's minds is, if someone not in uniform and in an unmarked car tried to pull me over, would i pull over for them. not, what would i do if i was the person claiming to be a cop. |
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| anthony [email] said at 3:23 PM 09-05-2006:
Umm, because the majority of us have mobile phones that would allow us to call 911 in a sketchy situation. A quick phone call by a pro football player of all people would have quickly resolved any doubts into whether or not the individual pulling him over was indeed the real deal. But I guess they don't pay those football players the big bucks to have common sense.
Maybe it's weird to you because you don't appreciate many of the individuals who get paid shit to risk their lives on a daily basis just so you can leave your home with some assurance that it's safe outside.
I think it is unnerving how many documented abuses of power there are, but I think the number of times the police have actually helped people far outweighs the outliers.
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY INITIAL QUESTION? what would you do? |
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| kiche [email] said at 4:07 PM 09-05-2006:
Maybe it's weird to you because you don't appreciate many of the individuals who get paid shit to risk their lives on a daily basis...
please show me the remarks that led you to believe this.
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED MY INITIAL QUESTION
that's because it is very difficult for me to see myself in the situation you postulate above.
see, if i were in my home, and i heard something outside got a gun, went outside and found someone out there who charged me and reached for their wasteband i would most definitely shoot.
but that's a whole different situation than the one you postulate above.
if i was a police officer on duty and pulled someone over who jumped out of their car, and i thought they were reaching for a gun. they'd be splattered across the side of the road.
but that is a completely different situation than the one you postulate above.
in the situation above i'd have to be a guy in regular clothes in a civilian car pulling someone over and claiming to be a cop. that is a whole other ball park my freind. |
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| anthony [email] said at 4:27 PM 09-05-2006:
I didn't postulate anything different. My question was in terms of the exact situation the the article is about. If you were a police officer who felt justified in trying to apply the law of the land, and an individual resists you and reaches in any direction other than the sky, what would you do?
I'm making no assumptions here. The officer at hand felt wholey justified for whatever reason and thus we have the current debate.
The remarks that have led me to believe you don't appreciate our uniformed civil servants are the ones in which you automatically assume they're all racist and unfairly treat black America. |
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| kiche [email] said at 4:31 PM 09-05-2006:
why do you continue to refuse to realize that this guy not being in uniform or in a squad car alters this situation drastically? |
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| anthony [email] said at 4:41 PM 09-05-2006:
I refuse because common sense would dictate calling the cops the minute anyone other than a police cruiser tries to pull you over, waves a gun at you, or shoots at your car.
Instead this guy tries to elude this "harasser" and then gets out of his vehicle? These all sound like things that are suspiciously associated with individuals who don't want the police involved AT ALL. |
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| evan [email] said at 12:00 PM 09-06-2006:
talk to any black person about how willing they are to involve cops in their lives. historically, black people DO NOT have positive experiences with cops, thus they typically avoid any interaction with police. yes, this is a generalization, but one i'm fairly comfortable making having worked in black schools and communities for the last 4 years.
now, if you had had an altercation with police just a few weeks before and someone was harassing you on the street, would you say "shit, lemme call my bros the cops" if you thought you might be able to handle it yourself.
and again, him calling 911 to check and see if the person trying to pull him over would likely not have done anything because the cop was off duty, likely driving in their his own car, and out of his jurisdiction. maybe he used his cell to call 911, but maybe not. |
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| art [email] said at 4:45 PM 09-05-2006:
What about undercover cops? |
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| evan [email] said at 12:02 PM 09-06-2006:
what about em? |
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| josh [email] said at 12:41 PM 09-06-2006:
an undercover cop wouldn't pull someone over... i mean, that would blow their cover |
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| evan [email] said at 12:46 PM 09-06-2006:
exactly. under cover cops and even regular plain clothed cops are used in a very particular manner because it's NOT SAFE to have cops be indistinguishable from civilians. |
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| josh [email] said at 3:25 PM 09-05-2006:
actually both viewpoints popped into my head... i would assume most people would try to imagine themselves in both sides of a situation, and not just one. |
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| max [email] said at 9:04 PM 09-04-2006:
This is not the same story on my news last night. |
 | pokey [email] said at 2:48 PM 09-04-2006:
Our cops don't shoot people. They only sexually assault women. |
 | peter [email] said at 2:54 PM 09-04-2006:
Cops are definitely supposed so stop crimes even when they're off duty but I feel like only a really agro cop out to prove something would be like "let me get this dude who's speeding" |
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| evan [email] said at 3:25 PM 09-04-2006:
i'm pretty positive off duty cops aren't supposed to pull people over for speeding. |
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| milky [email] said at 7:51 PM 09-04-2006:
if someone is driving pretty erratic, they do.
it's happened here regularly. |
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| milky [email] said at 3:42 PM 09-05-2006:
and to me, actually. a black cop pulled me over and asked me what the hell my problem was. back in 96, actually. |
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| evan [email] said at 3:25 PM 09-04-2006:
i lived on coronado for part of a summer. weird place. |
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| max [email] said at 3:30 PM 09-04-2006:
I never quite fit in there. I grew up in Big Sur, which is the most liberal of places. It was culture shock, to say the least, as an 8 year old to move from Big Sur to Coronado. |
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| myriam [email] said at 11:28 AM 09-05-2006:
Yeah, I moved from Oakland to south Orange County. Weird. My mom was teaching at basically an all-black high school, and then we moved somewhere where there was literally one black family in my whole neighborhood. And the dad was a doctor. |
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| rick [email] said at 3:42 PM 09-04-2006:
This tragedy is, in part, the outcome of the hyperaggressive stance that a lot of police departments have taken because of the drug war. These kinds of incidents and SWAT teams busting down the wrong door and shooting innocent civilians are first cousins. |
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| myriam [email] said at 11:33 AM 09-05-2006:
Yeah I have a feeling that might be why there seems such a disproportionate police response in San Diego--huge center of the the "drug war". Plus you gotta show those dirty Mexicans who's boss, of course. |
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| rick [email] said at 3:58 PM 09-04-2006:
There was a legendary homeless man here that was shot because he had a stick that looked like a gun.This crazy homeless man in Baton Rouge who dressed like a cowboy was shot down by police in his home. |
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| max [email] said at 4:20 PM 09-04-2006:
New news: Female officer. Not necessarily a testosterone issue. |
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| milky [email] said at 7:54 PM 09-04-2006:
I don't know what happened, but generally, it's never a good idea to act a fool when you get pulled over. |
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| amanda [email] said at 8:24 PM 09-04-2006:
Yeah, but couldn't he have just been reaching for his identification? That's not really "acting a fool."
I'm not saying that's what happened, but instead that it's entirely possible that the officer freaked out over nothing because the guy didn't pull over immediately. |
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| milky [email] said at 8:48 AM 09-05-2006:
I dunno about the waistband thing...that's always one of those cop said/vic said things...I'm taklking about telling the cop "that's a BB gun," etc. |
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| myriam [email] said at 11:33 AM 09-05-2006:
Convenient if you shoot the guy so he can't say anything after. |
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| josh [email] said at 2:21 PM 09-05-2006:
he's not dead. |
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| myriam [email] said at 5:43 PM 09-05-2006:
Yeah I read the article after I posted this. |
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| milky [email] said at 3:38 PM 09-05-2006:
All I know is, it's never a good idea to tell someone with a gun that you think they have a toy gun, a bb gun, or a cap gun. |
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| evan [email] said at 3:40 PM 09-05-2006:
yeah, if that's the way shit went down it's clearly not the smartest way to deal with things regardless of whether the person is or isn't a cop. |
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| milky [email] said at 3:50 PM 09-05-2006:
I dunno, I just don't have the kind of balls to see if someone is going to shoot or not.
Plainclothes cops have pulled me over in two states, LA and IL. I never f'ed with em, and one was very much off duty.
I deserved being pulled over. I was respectful, and the cops gave me warnings. |
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| myriam [email] said at 11:31 AM 09-05-2006:
Did the football player die???
This story is crazy and scary. I would never pull over for an unmarked car like that--in fact, I once WAS pulled over by an unmarked police car, and it freaked me the fuck out. The only reason I did it (after a few miles of driving with him behind me) is that I had a guy in the car with me. Had I been alone, as a girl, I never, ever would have stopped. The guy was driving a beat up 80s Ford Mustang, for fuck's sake, and had a little blue light he stuck up on his roof himself. That's exactly how rapes happen. |
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| anthony [email] said at 12:07 PM 09-05-2006:
I believe the proper protocol would be to either call 911 and ask if the person behind you is an officer, or to pull over, crack your window, keep the car in drive, and when the officer comes, to ask that a marked and uniformed officer be present as well. |
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| myriam [email] said at 12:12 PM 09-05-2006:
Good to know. Hopefully it will never happen again.
The odd thing is that I was sure that CA had strict laws about unmarked cops not being able to apprehend people without marked cops present. Same rule that requires CA cops to be clearly visible in marked cars with headlights on in "speed trap" situations. There was a rash of cop impersonators in the early 90s if I recall and everyone got mad and made a stink about it (rightly). |
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| evan [email] said at 12:21 PM 09-05-2006:
you're right, and this is why unmarked cars, plain clothes cops, and off duty cops aren't supposed to pull people over for traffic violations and in situations where there isn't some clear and present danger. |
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| anthony [email] said at 12:24 PM 09-05-2006:
From the article that I found, the shooting victim was described as driving erratically, which would constitute a danger to the general public, moreso than someone just driving fast. |
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| myriam [email] said at 12:31 PM 09-05-2006:
No southern California driver doesn't drive erratically. |
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| myriam [email] said at 12:36 PM 09-05-2006:
I mean our freeways are a lot of lanes, and most people change lanes a lot to get ahead, which I've noticed much less out on the East Coast. If a guy's driving 90, he's most likely weaving in and out of lanes to get into empty spots of road. This is what most drivers in Orange County are known for, for example. A cop could then say he was driving erratically, because he's changing lanes a lot. |
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| evan [email] said at 12:43 PM 09-05-2006:
"driving erratically" can mean just about anything and seems like a convenient excuse for some douchebag cop to pull anyone over. i don't think it holds much weight. too bad the cop is off duty and there's no dashcam to check out. |
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| art [email] said at 12:55 PM 09-05-2006:
From the NYTimes today:
Sheriff’s officials said the shooting occurred early in the morning after an off-duty Coronado police officer followed a suspected drunken driver weaving in and out of highway traffic at speeds up to 90 miles an hour. Authorities said the auto, driven by Foley, nearly struck several other vehicles.
They gave the following account:
The officer attempted to stop the vehicle at least three times, but the driver drove away.
During one of the stops, Lisa Maree Gaut, a passenger in the vehicle, yelled at the officer.
The shooting occurred after Foley got out of the vehicle and began walking toward the officer. Gaut got behind the wheel and drove next to Foley in the direction of the officer.
The officer identified himself and warned Foley that he was armed.
He fired a warning shot, at which point Gaut steered the car at the officer.
“The officer fired two rounds at the vehicle,” sheriff’s Lt. Dennis Brugos said. “The male then came at the officer and put his right hand by his waistband and the officer fired at him.” |
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| josh [email] said at 1:05 PM 09-05-2006:
if this is accurate, i can see why the cop would shoot the dude, but six times still seems excessive. |
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| art [email] said at 1:11 PM 09-05-2006:
According to the article, he was shot three times. Two shots were fired at the car and one warning shot in the air. That accounts for the six shots reported earlier. In the old days the officer would have a 38 or 45 and would only have to fire one shot to stop someone. The 9mm they use nowadays don't have the same kind of stopping power. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:44 PM 09-05-2006:
from reuters:
"Police would not confirm how many times Foley was shot, only saying that the officer shot him when he ignored warnings to stop as he approached the officer after getting out of his car near his home after a lengthy chase." |
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| milky [email] said at 3:44 PM 09-05-2006:
You had the driver incident, then a drunk passenger who kept gunning the engine and trying to run the cop over. I'm surprised it was _only_ six shots. |
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| evan [email] said at 1:08 PM 09-05-2006:
cops are gonna cover for other cops, and with an off duty cop there is no dashcam for evidence to dispute that.
how often to you hear about white people being shot for reaching for their waistband? |
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| anthony [email] said at 1:27 PM 09-05-2006:
How often do people run at a cop? Usually they run away.
Fuck this whole race thing. |
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| art [email] said at 1:31 PM 09-05-2006:
All white people are racist, don't you know that? We are guilty just by existing |
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| myriam [email] said at 1:37 PM 09-05-2006:
I'm not really sure where the race thing came up, I didn't really see that in your comments.
We can sum up: if the guy really WAS being menacing and reaching for shit and threatening the cop, well, then the cop still shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place withouth having called for uniformed, district backup. Also, the circumstances are such that it is obviously difficult to say what actually happened, which tends to cast doubts on the cop's story, since it makes it really convenient for him to say what he did, and there is no proof. End of story. I don't really see why it would matter whether he was black or not. San Diego cops tend to go for ANYONE. Also the black thing probably isn't on everyone's mind as much out there as it would be for you guys, Kiche, from Louisiana. |
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| evan [email] said at 1:43 PM 09-05-2006:
i dont think anthony made any comment on race. i'm not accusing him of being racist. i do think that race most likely played a factor in this shooting.
and race isn't on people's minds in california!? |
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| myriam [email] said at 1:48 PM 09-05-2006:
race is, of course. But I have noticed that the perceptions of black people seem much different out there than they are in Louisiana. |
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| myriam [email] said at 1:51 PM 09-05-2006:
than they seem to be in Louisiana, I should clarify. I haven't been there. |
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| evan [email] said at 2:47 PM 09-05-2006:
having lived in both louisiana and california, particularly Coronado and elsewhere in San Diego, i can say that race relations and perception isn't much different. In SD it just hides beneath the surface a little bit more. Most urban and suburban areas of Louisiana are far more integrated than San Diego. |
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| myriam [email] said at 5:44 PM 09-05-2006:
I didn't say there is no racism in SD. I just don't think black/white is what it's all about. |
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| milky [email] said at 3:44 PM 09-05-2006:
the cop called for backup quick. read. |
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| evan [email] said at 1:40 PM 09-05-2006:
it's easy for white people to say "fuck this whole race thing." we're on the nice side of things, and by saying race doesn't matter then we are able to ignore the privileges and safety we are afforded because of the color of our skin. |
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| art [email] said at 1:45 PM 09-05-2006:
That's bullshit. You have no evidence race factors into this at all.
You are saying that because the cop was white and the suspect black the confrontation was inherently racist? Bullshit |
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| myriam [email] said at 1:49 PM 09-05-2006:
she was a woman, it could have been misogyny... i bet she had a cheatin' husband!!!! |
 | kara [email] said at 2:47 PM 09-05-2006:
misandry |
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| rick [email] said at 2:52 PM 09-05-2006:
Men: Can't Live With 'Em, Can't Shoot 'Em |
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| myriam [email] said at 5:44 PM 09-05-2006:
whoops, thanks |
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| evan [email] said at 1:51 PM 09-05-2006:
the disproportional imprisonment and victimization by police of the black population in america is all i really need to lead me to suspect that any interaction between police and black men is heavily loaded with racial factors. |
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| art [email] said at 2:02 PM 09-05-2006:
So you are into stereotyping then? |
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| evan [email] said at 2:20 PM 09-05-2006:
is it possible to stereotype the american criminal justice system? |
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| anthony [email] said at 2:23 PM 09-05-2006:
Wait wait...are you telling me that the vast majority of black individuals in our penal system are their unjustly due to racial profiling and a corrupt justice system? |
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| evan [email] said at 2:49 PM 09-05-2006:
of course not! they are there because black people are criminals and white people aren't!
lord knows why black people just happen to be convicted at a higher rate than white people who are arrested for the same crime, and receive greater prison sentences as well. |
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| anthony [email] said at 3:02 PM 09-05-2006:
Wow. Between you and kiche, I almost feel as if I'm apart of a racial red scare.
I don't think that our society is where it needs to be in terms of race and gender, but I also find it disheartening when so many people are quick to play the race card and not face the actual situation at hand. |
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