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 milky 
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Obedient
Yesterday didn't quite go as planned.
Michelle's pet cat, Karma, was missing for over a day. We assumed it had just wandered off, as cats with newfound places to explore do, especially with such a big complex with small animals in the bushes. She started catching mice and had this wanderlust. She would paw at the door, tear up the carpet and whine to be let outside. Lately, she just had to go outside at night and she didn't return until the morning. We spent most of Wednesday night calling for her and looking for her around the complex. We started calling animal control and vet hospitals yesterday morning. I even went to the city pound to look for her.
I stepped outside at 11am. It was unusually hot. I couldn't imagine where a cat would be hiding in this kind of heat. Across the street is an enormous plot of undeveloped land...words, sort of, but more like brush with huge plies of rocks. Maybe she was lost in there. I got lost looking for her. Figured she was just lost and scared. Coyotes live there. I was more worried about that. I found a full sized, nearly clean skeleton of some sort of horned animal. After I got lost, I tried to find my way back to the road. I slipped on some rocks and landed on my ass near two rattlesnakes. I heard the rattles and I got up and just ran! Stumbling over everything. Getting scratched by the brush. I figured she must be somewhere else.
As soon as I got into a clearing near the apartment, I saw her and walked towards her. But she wasn't moving. Her eyes and mouth were open. A trickle of couagulated blood was in her left ear. I've never seen a dead pet. I started to cry a little. Aw, Hell...why...She was in perfect shape besides the ear. Didn't look like she was hit by a car. Michelle had been calling every hour to see if I had found anything. I picked up my cell phone and told her I'd found Karma's body.
Michelle came home, on her birthday, in tears. Before she arrived, I'd covered the body several times and put it into the pet carrier. No sense in her seeing her cat like that. I drove her back to the pound so they could dispose of the body. I felt awful about all the times I squirted the car with the squirtgun or yelled at it for tearing up the carpet or furniture or drinking out of my glass of milk.
She asked me if I was absolutely certain Karman was dead and noted that it sounded stupid. I said yeah. They took the carrier and returned with it empty. Michelle had to go back to work. I drove her there and stayed downtown until she got out.
I'm not posting for sympathy. I just post my life here. Good stuff and bad stuff.
[ posted by milky at 03/15/2002 06:03:59 AM ] [ trackback ]
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Threaded Responses [ bottom ]
NuckleheadEd [ url ]
said at 6:32 AM 03-15-2002:
Damn, Milky. That's rough. You and Michelle have my sympathies. As someone who's had pets all his life, I know how bad it sucks to lose one. |
Daniel said at 8:37 AM 03-15-2002:
my parents took the family cat with them to florida when they retired, phantom died within a few months. it was sad. meow. |
 | josh [email] said at 8:59 AM 03-15-2002:
It probably got bit my a snake if it didn't look hurt in any other way.
That's a real shame. I still get sad sometimes when I think about when my family dog as a child died, so I know how Michelle feels. |
Daniel said at 9:17 AM 03-15-2002:
when i was living in arlington on quebec st(across the st. from aldrich ames'house), we had five roomates. one roomate had a rabbit, charlie brown she called it. it wasn't that cute but she loved it. one thanksgiving weekend she went to visit family in texas and left us to take care of the rabbit. i think all we had to do is make sure it had water(one of my other roomates agreed to this). needless to say, when we went to check on it one morning, it was stone cold. be dug a hole next to the fountain in the back yard, dropped it in, covered it up and planted flowers there. those flowers seemed to bloom all summer. when my roomate came back she cried for a week. it was sad. she didn't believe us when we told her 'cause the evidence was under dirt. i think she may be over that now, that was in 1996. |
xmx said at 9:39 AM 03-15-2002:
god, that's awful. i'm crying right now because i'm thinking about my kitties.
i don't want this to sound mean, milky, but there's a lot to say for indoor-only cats. they live longer, and it's just safer for them.
that statement is in no way meant to lecture or detract from how sorry i am. losing pets sucks, that's horrible. |
Daniel said at 10:17 AM 03-15-2002:
indoor cats have limited fun. if i were a cat i would take the chance and go outside. i'm totally against indoor-only cats. direct sunlight is vital. i had an outdoor cat that lived to 22! that seems pretty safe. and another thing, those people who declaw thier cats just to save the furniture really piss me off. |
xmx said at 10:38 AM 03-15-2002:
outside cats live much more dangerous lives. cars, people, other animals, poisons, disease, etc., etc. it's a well-documented fact that indoor cats live longer than outdoor cats. |
xmx said at 10:40 AM 03-15-2002:
i'm suspending my side of this debate indefinitely out of respect for the dead. |
 | evan [email] said at 2:42 PM 03-15-2002:
my cat is indoor only for a couple of reasons, one because id worry about him but im sure he'd be ok if i let him outside and two, because soon i will be moving to new york and he won't be able to go outside so i thought it would be wrong to tease him with a taste of freedom and then take it away. |
yetanotherben [ url ]
said at 10:00 AM 03-15-2002:
milky -- i can sympathize -- last year, my cat "Doombringer" (thats a story within itself), went missing on Kentucky Derby weekend. Well, my fiance and i went down to the waterfront to watch the huge fireworks show, all the time thinking "where is our cat RIGHT NOW?" Well, after he didn't come home that night either, we went looking around. Finally, we found a neighbor who had seen a cat -- laying in the road. Two nice old gay men who lived across the street, and finally, i got him to tell me what had happened to the cat. He points back across the street to our trashcans. "I don't know why i felt i had to put the cat in there" (uh, i think i know why -- you didn't want a dead cat in your trashcan!). So, anyway, we checked the trashcan, and he was most certainly in there, in a Glad Handybag, no less. Well, it just then started to rain, and kelly and i started digging a grave for wee Doombringer, it was raining, and i got a blister digging in the rooty soil near the trees behind our apartment. i still have a scar from that blister. So, there i was, standing under some tall pines, it's dark, raining, and i'm digging a grave, crying my eyes out for my cat. kelly, who can't stand to clean out a catbox, opened the bag up and retrieved his collar, and even petted him (!), and i did too, but man was it a little strange. in any case, doombringer is buried with his favorite toy (a stuffed mouse) behind our old apartment, overlooked by a window he sat in for many of the hours of his short life. |
anotherben said at 10:55 AM 03-15-2002:
i miss my hedgehog. a very cool lady rushed him to the vet for me one day while i was in class.. but it was too late. then the vet (lsu vet school) wanted to know if they could have its body..they said they dont get many hedghogs to poke. hes buried in an alley behind a little house in baton rouge with a 4Renters.com sign out front. sigh. |
anotherben said at 10:57 AM 03-15-2002:
his name was zeus. |
brianbibbly said at 11:29 AM 03-15-2002:
Hedghogs are cute. I love them in those Sonic the Hedghog commercials. Hedghog, I pour my 40 for you tooooooooooo........ |
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| josh [email] said at 2:57 PM 03-15-2002:
Fucking weird. Was that your hedgehog that I took a picture of for the yearbook like 6 years ago? I can't remeber where it came from, but Alicia got it somehow. |
anotherben said at 3:43 PM 03-15-2002:
err...i know alicia hedghognapped zeus once. i didnt know there were any photo shoots involved in his absence. zeus was in the yearbook? |
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| josh [email] said at 4:05 PM 03-15-2002:
Yep, she borrowed him so I could take a picture. It didn't come out well though, because we were stuck in the dorm room, I think, so the RA wouldn't see, and had no flash. |
anotherben said at 4:32 PM 03-15-2002:
borrowed?? i spent hours scouring my apartment and the neighborhood looking for him. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:35 PM 03-15-2002:
I dunno, I'm just guessing. I remeber taking a picture of a hedgehog that Alicia had somehow aquired, that's all I know. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:35 PM 03-15-2002:
Oh, it was cute, as well. |
anotherben said at 4:45 PM 03-15-2002:
zeus certainly had a way with the ladies. i remember this all now. lucy was in on the theft. they claimed i was not taking good care of him and that they were keeping him until i could prove myself a worthy pet owner. i think he was stolen while i was in the eternal line at walmart on perkins buying bedding for his box. zeus really liked cheese. |
 | nathan [email] said at 7:10 PM 03-15-2002:
My friend, where did you find your exotic pet? I would like to get a wombat. I just read an article saying that the zoos are selling their animals as they get older because the baby animals are the most popular. What they're selling even includes tigers. |
 | anotherben [email] said at 8:04 PM 03-15-2002:
i got the hedgie from a friend..i think he got it from some place in mississippi. at one point someone convinced me that they were illegal to sell many places. im not so sure i beleive that anymore. there is a old chinese guy who sells baby terrapins in the sleepy hollow tavern on saturday nights. i guess if you know the right people you can get whatever pet you want. i think i would like to get another hedgehog. surely the landlady didnt mean them too when she said no pets? |
 | Bendependent [email] said at 11:31 AM 03-16-2002:
Had a way with the ladies.... Hmpf! The only encounter I ever had with a hedgehog was on Chimes St. Some guy was displaying his hedgehog for attention and I fell for it. Two minutes of fondling the thing and it burrowed into my overalls and took a piss. I was grossed out and returned the creature to its creepy owner. Moments later I put my hands in my pockets and discovered HEDGEHOG FECES!!! |
angele said at 11:34 AM 03-16-2002:
actually, that was me telling that story. |
anotherben said at 8:32 PM 03-16-2002:
zeus did not defecate or urinate on people..i dont think. he was rather fond of "tasting" them occasionally. hedgehog teeth are cute. |
Nathan said at 10:48 AM 03-18-2002:
Did Ben ever wear your overalls? |
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| josh [email] said at 4:57 PM 03-15-2002:
Chad's house? |
brianbibbly said at 11:25 AM 03-15-2002:
Kitty, I pour my 40 for youuuuuuuuuuu.....
Seriously, that sucks. I hate it when I lose a pet. I'd be real sad if my cat died. She brings constant fun into my life. At least maybe she died in a battle with a rattlesnake. That is way cooler than being hit by a car. |
Shell said at 12:08 PM 03-15-2002:
What a terrible experience for both of you. Please extend my sympathy to Michelle. |
neilbert said at 1:45 PM 03-15-2002:
My Cat "Pissy," who was found in the wild one day by my mom, was the best cat I ever had. He was an outdoor cat (all cats should be outdoor cats). Unfortunately, outdoor cats use up their nine lives rather quick. One day last year, pissy went missing for a few days, and my mom went looking for him. Well, she found him, dead, squished on the road. I had thought it was odd that he "went out like that," as pissy was quite smart, and always stayed away from the road. Anyway, my mom brings the cat back, we bury him, mourn and move on. However, something did not seem right.
The next morning I open the front door and lo and behold, there is pissy standing there with half of his face falling off (pissy did look like church from Pet Sematary, by the way). Needless to say, we were all shocked, we buried the wrong cat. Well, we took him to the vet and they had to cut half of his face off, as it had become very badly infected, and pissy, who never stayed inside longer than 20 min, had to spend weeks in the house. He meowed non-stop 24/7. After he got better we let him go back outside. A few weeks later he dissappeared again, never to be seen again. The vet said that he most likely abandoned us, given all of the trauma he had been through.
We never dug up the other cat to find out if we indeed did bury the wrong cat. :) |
 | milky [email] said at 2:12 PM 03-15-2002:
Kinda messed up. |
xmx said at 2:19 PM 03-15-2002:
i'm sorry, milky. your current position of sadness really makes me not want to do this, and i'd like to be able to exclude you from all this, but i probably can't.
neilbert, you are a cunt.
what is it about cats that makes them so great at being "outdoor" pets? are there any other pets that are considered "outdoor"? if one takes their dog outside without a leash, and the dog gets killed, is it the dog's fault?
no. it's the owner's fault. it's negligence and in fact stupidity on the owner's part.
i don't really understand why people bother to have cats if they're going to let them live outside. you're basically damning them to a shorter life. and horror stories such as cats with half a face, cats getting hit by cars, etc. basically, it's negligence. there's nothing that pisses me off more than people who don't take care of their fucking pets, and letting your cat roam around outside is plain, straightforward stupid and irresponsible. you might as well EXPECT to find the poor thing dead.
i've worked at animal shelters that require you keep cats indoors. contrary to popular belief, cats aren't "less happy" inside. this kind of thinking is base and immature at best.
as far as i'm concerned, people with "outdoor" cats are simply horrific pet owners.
having a pet isn't just some small thing. you've got a responsibility to that animal: feeding, sheltering, vet bills, keeping it safe, etc. and when/if the cat dies, it's *your* fault. not the cats. it was YOUR responsibility.
and you failed. |
neilbert said at 2:49 PM 03-15-2002:
XMX, get off of your high horse. My cat lived for seven years, which is a pretty damn long time. My cat WAS an outdoor cat, a wildcat per-ce. We found him at a state park, roaming in the wild (as a kitten). He could never exist as indoor cat, as evidenced by his non-stop cries when we had to keep him inside for his own good. My cat was one of the happiest cats that you have ever seen, he LOVED being outdoors, hunting for mice, snakes and other pests. We never neutered him (as he would have not had the ability to protect himself outdoors against other cats). You are right that indoor cats are not unhappy, why would they be? They are fed, and comfortable. I guess it's just that we have always taken in strays and wildcats off the street. Not one of our cats were from "Pets R us." The cats we had were from the wild. I have always preferred not being in total control of my cats. I like to know that my cat is out there having a good time, catching some squirells and not just being a "garfield," a blob sitting on the couch.
Once again, I have taken in cats that most people would have euthanized. I must also mention that I did not live in a Metropolitan area, like Baton Rouge, or Washinton D.C. I live in Mississippi, where there are plenty of woods for a cat to roam unscathed.
Of course it is stupid, and impossible to have an outdoors cat in a city, as they will most certainly get killed, but mostly all of my cats have been killed by owls. There are gigantic, "Secret of NIMH-esque," owls that live in the huge oak trees next to my parents house. I have seen these monsters scoop up very large rodents with one fell swoop. The injuries to Pissy, resembled talon strikes, as they were extremely deep.
I loved my cats, they were all good cats and lived happy, long lives. Sure, they might have died not in the manner of which I would have preferred, but they could not have existed as house cats to begin with. They did not waste away in front of the t.v. set eating "fancy feast" all day long. |
xmx said at 3:13 PM 03-15-2002:
well gee, neilbert, i didn't realize that you were a backwoods yetti sort of redneck, and surely you need such wildcats around to protect your sorry ass, for when you've run out of bullets for your shotgun, wasting them all on wild shots aimed in the general direction of your brother, who fucked your sister, and the pack of wild dogs shows up salivating over your supply of brown sugar. help me, please, dear wildcat!
seven years is nothing of a lifespan for a cat. that's half of a normal lifespan.
and your argument about "garfield" cats -- assuming that animals or cats in particular have some sort of grander purpose that they're put on earth to achieve ["i was put here to catch mice, and catch mice i will!"] is the same sort of argument that propagated slavery ["them darkies like pickin' cotton an' gettin' whipped!".]
i'm glad you loved your cats. just think how much longer you could have loved them if you weren't an infantile, asinine, backward-thinking selfish piece of fat ass fuck.
just think of that. |
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| josh [email] said at 3:36 PM 03-15-2002:
I know I would not liked to be cooped up in a house, unable to leave. Why should I think my pets feel any different? As long as you don't live in the middle of a big city, I don't see why your cats should be stuck inside. My parents live in a sleepy neighborhood, far from wild animals and woods. Our cats are fine.
I mean, your kids would live a lot longer if you didn't let them out of the house, too, Meredith.
I have to admit, I think it's a pretty weird idea to "own" animals. That's why I loved the dynamic with my parent's cats. We didn't own them, or buy them. They adopted _us_. If they had stopped liking us, they would have moved on. |
xmx said at 4:00 PM 03-15-2002:
you're applying human characteristics to animals. that's incorrect.
cats don't know that there's a big wide world out there unless you let them get a taste of it. it's not like my cats are at home pining in the front window every day, wishing they could catch an ocean liner to spain or participate in a rodeo. it's not a disney movie.
you can fault me for that all you want. i keep my cats inside because i know they're safe and perfectly happy, and that's what i need to sleep at night.
i daresay you wouldn't let young children who don't know any better outside of the house without adult supervision, up to a certain age. animals never reach an age at which they can cognitively recognize limits of personal safety. eventually, humans do [though they stretch those limits]. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:09 PM 03-15-2002:
Yeah, if you buy your cats from a pet store, Meredith, they don't. But what about adopted cats? Cats that were strays, which is the only kind I've ever had. Or would have, since there are so many. They do indeed know there is a world out there - they grew up in it.
And you are foolish if you think cats can't recognize the limits of personal safety. I've seen my cats look both ways before crossing the road. I've also seen them attack a rat, then run until they saw I was nearby, then realize they had back-up and turn back to attack it again. If that's not knowledge of personal safety, what is? |
xmx said at 4:12 PM 03-15-2002:
i didn't get either of my cats from pet stores. both were adopted from shelters. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:20 PM 03-15-2002:
So they've never been outside to get a taste for it, then? |
 | xmeredithx [email] said at 4:36 PM 03-15-2002:
they go outside on the deck when it's nice, and daylight, and i'm outside to keep an eye on them. the deck is basically another room, just without a roof. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:45 PM 03-15-2002:
But were they wild cats when you got them?
My cats were wild when we got them - one was already a year old. He definitely did not appreciate being kept indoors. My mom tried. |
 | kiche [email] said at 1:20 PM 03-16-2002:
ok meredith, let me get this straight. if you live in rural ms, and a wild cat starts hanging around your house and you start feeding it and decide it's yous and take care of it and struggle to bring it to the vet every once and a while (i've gotten scratched pretty bad before), you aren't doing enough for it.
no, according to you, we should have tried to force a quasi-wild animal into the captivity of your home.
i have actually seen people try to do this. these people are idiots and are sick. a cat that has grown up in the wild when forced into captivity goes beserk. they urinate all over everything they claw everything up (yes, it continues after they've been fixed, they grew up in the wild).
my freind's aunt used to run the waveland animal shelter. she would tell us stories of people who would try to make a wild cat an in door cat. they get it fixed to try to stop it from urinating on everything (getting them fixed is a good thing), they get it declawed so it can't tear up the furniture). it still pisses on things and is never happy. the only thing you can do with a declawed wild cat is put it to sleep.
keeping a wild/quasi-wild cat indoors and using the flimsy excuse that it will live longer is like locking some one in a cell and saying that they will now live longer. |
Daniel said at 3:17 PM 03-15-2002:
again, my cat marbles lived to be 22 and was an indoor/outdoor cat. she just needed to stand by the door if she wanted out. she died of old age and we buried her in the woods in back of our house.
i think the relationship between pet and owner is unique and all factors should be considered when talking about taking a pet out into 'the world'. does that mean you have to have a trained dog on a leash every second.(well, yes according to the law) but what is actually practical. to you think those people in the park throwing frisbees to thier dogs should curtail that activity because the dog might run off and get hurt?
cats are absurdly smart and can usually be trusted to go off on their own. sometime though, because of danger, tragic things do happen. it's very sad when a pet dies, i've been through several. but, ummm.., it's a cat. now i'm off to club baby seals. |
xmx said at 3:24 PM 03-15-2002:
We never neutered him (as he would have not had the ability to protect himself outdoors against other cats).
well, good job, there. i wonder how many litters of kittens that 'tard cat fathered, who had to be euthanized, or were killed by larger predators.
*golf clap* |
Daniel said at 3:29 PM 03-15-2002:
pets should be spayed and neutered, just ask bob barker. |
Daniel said at 3:32 PM 03-15-2002:
actually, now that i think about it, it's these dog owners in the city that are being mean to their pets. dog in small apartment, left alone all day to wait = abuse to dog. cats on the other hand are able to adapt and probably are fine indoors but man, i would hate to be that cat. probably a cave cat, back in caveman days didn't live very long either. the cave man ate him. |
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| josh [email] said at 3:06 PM 03-15-2002:
Wow, Meredith, you really need to fucking relax, okay?
My parents have had outdoor/indoor cats for about ten years now. The oldest recently did die a bit young, at ten - of cat cancer (actually they had to have him put to sleep, he was all messed up and could barely get around and was in pain all the time). The other three (two his progeny) are still going strong at eight. None of our cats have ever been hit by a car. We have had others at times who adopted us as well, but they usually would leave after they realized that my mom's cat, "Baby", was the head of the household and they would always be second or third or fourth banana.
Our original cat was a stray who adopted us, NOT some cat we got from a pet store or even from a friend. He loved to run around outside and kill mice and squirrels - something he did often. He came in with a dead snake once. He would not of liked living inside, and had we tried to keep him in, he'd have just escaped one day and never come back. |
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| josh [email] said at 3:16 PM 03-15-2002:
Another issue to me, about this, is the fact that animals aren't really meant to be cooped up in houses. I would _never_ own a dog, for example, unless I had a large backyard for it to run around in, and hopefully another dog to play with. WTF does a dog do in a tiny apartment (unless it's one of those lil 10-pound dogs, I guess).
Same for cats. Cats like to go outside and I think they should be able too, as long as you have a yard they will be safe and pretty much stick to their territory. Our cats always did. |
xmx said at 3:32 PM 03-15-2002:
cats are highly adaptable. they adjust to small or large spaces, that's not really an issue at all. i mean, that's like saying people shouldn't have fish as pets because those aquariums are too small.
although, i guess your argument explains a lot about killer ii's demise.
you can't train a cat not to run away, to avoid cars, to not sleep under warm car hoods, or to come inside when it's cold out. maybe you can train a dog, to an extent, but i'd levy the same criticisms at someone whose dog was killed through owner stupidity, and i have.
i think the majority of "personal experiences" being written about here are of cats who did not stay in backyards, who wandered off to hunt, to explore, etc., and ended up getting killed. where's the evidence in that?
and cats hunting...well, that's a whole other issue. a cat who kills squirrels and birds and mice in large quantities isn't exactly doing anyone a favor, unless we're talking about certain particular circumstances.
if i seem to be fighting this rather voraciously, it's because i like animals a whole lot more than people. |
Daniel said at 3:44 PM 03-15-2002:
i agree, animals are cooler than people. maybe i'll become a vegan because animals deserve to live to the maximum possible age and conform to the standards of your lifestyle. what is an acceptable lifespan for a pet cat without having the feeling of guilt after taking on the responsiblity of pet ownership? i'm off to club more baby seals. |
Daniel said at 3:47 PM 03-15-2002:
look ma, i'm involved in a killoggs debate, no hands. weeee..... |
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| josh [email] said at 3:58 PM 03-15-2002:
i mean, that's like saying people shouldn't have fish as pets because those aquariums are too small.
Fish can't really think, and definitely can't "enjoy life". Studies have shown that reptiles and fish do not "play" - that is do things that do not directly help them in some way, or follow an instinct, just for fun. (I want to say that only mammals play, but birds may to, anyone else know?) (incidentally I mentioned this at a party once and somebody was like "Dude, you're wrong, dolphins play all the time and they're fish!")
Studies have also shown that house-type fish have such bad short term memories that they probably don't remember one side of the tank by the time they swim to the other.
although, i guess your argument explains a lot about killer ii's demise.
you killed killer 2, just as you killed killer 1. You bought two fish in the same day. The first died before you could give it to me, so you bought another then came to my house. I put it in my room and we went out to eat. When we came back it was dead. I don't see a lot of mystery about why it died. Either you added too much of the water purifier, or the place you bought them was a bunk pet store.
you can't train a cat not to run away, to avoid cars, to not sleep under warm car hoods, or to come inside when it's cold out.
I don't know what kind of cats you have had, or where you got them, but my cats didn't have to be trained to do this. They knew it already before we ever got them. No cat we've ever owned died of anything but natural causes.
Of course, our cats were also never declawed, something I think is pretty horrible to do to an animal. Removing parts of it's body for the pure purpose of making it more convienent for our furniture.
i think the majority of "personal experiences" being written about here are of cats who did not stay in backyards, who wandered off to hunt, to explore, etc., and ended up getting killed. where's the evidence in that?
As I said, my cats hunt. My mom's cat killed dozens of squirrels, several snakes. It even attacked a neighbor's doberman and chased it off, once.
I like animals, too. Animals aren't meant to be kept for our amusement. They are designed (by nature or God, take your pick) to run around, kill things and procreate. That is what they are for, that is what they love to do. You can argue we have bred them to like it to a lesser extent, but you cannot deny that that is what a cat is designed for - they are hunters. Think of the games cats play, they almost all simulate a hunting environment.
a cat who kills squirrels and birds and mice in large quantities isn't exactly doing anyone a favor
I'd disagree about mice for sure, if not squirrels and birds. But there do need to be predators for mice and birds, otherwise there will be over population. |
xmx said at 4:03 PM 03-15-2002:
dude, i was just kidding about killer2. and there was a day in between my buying the first killer and the second. and if you want to know how i feel about that, you can ask brandon, who i'm very sure remembers the fact that i cried over it. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:11 PM 03-15-2002:
"It's okay to fish, they don't have any feelings." |
anotherben said at 4:20 PM 03-15-2002:
err...kurt said that first. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:20 PM 03-15-2002:
What? It's a song lyric. |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:27 PM 03-16-2002:
nirvana... can't remember the name of the song... it's the last song on nevermind... i think it might be called "something in the way", and the lyric goes "it's ok to eat fish"... |
firefly said at 8:01 PM 03-15-2002:
Cats are domesticated animals. Their original habitat was not in a home. We made them that way. This is not to say that they should all be put outside, since we HAVE made them our pets. But they didn't start out living in houses. I think there are arguments for both indoors and outdoors.
While being a pet owner makes you responsible for your pets, I have to say that my cats owned me. They very decidedly announced to me what they wanted, and they got damn pissy if I wasn't immediately responsive to their desires. And I very much disagree that you can't train cats. If you can teach a cat where to go to do its business, you can teach it other things, and I was able to teach both my cats to stay away from places they shouldn't go. There are places where it isn't safe for kitties to lead an outside lifestyle, both in wild areas where there are coyotes and other things that eat them, and in cities where there are cars and mean people. And cats are individuals. Some are dumber than others. One of mine like to taunt cars, but she was smart enough to only play with those that she knew. She never got hit and died of old age at 18. I think part of being a pet owner is recognizing whether your pets are happy and safe and figuring out how best to keep them that way. Personally, I think that if the cat's unhappy inside, then keeping it inside when it's safe for it to be outside isn't being a responsible pet owner. |
Emmaliegh said at 3:25 PM 03-15-2002:
I sort of have to agree with you. I've always had indorr/outdoor cats and they have done fine. but recently my little kitty, Ashlee, was attacked by a pack of dogs. Luckily some friend of the neighbors saw the dogs attack her, rescued her, and took her to the pound. They bit her head and amazingly did not snap her neck. However, her face was paralized for several weeks. Her right eye was stuck open and her ear wouldn't move. Ever since then I have felt that cats should stay inside. I'd never seen or heard of this pack of dogs before so I didn't even know it was a risk. |
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| josh [email] said at 3:38 PM 03-15-2002:
Where the hell do you live where you have packs of dogs roaming around? That's not cool because if they'll attack a cat, they'd probably attack a kid. |
xmx said at 3:51 PM 03-15-2002:
well, that would obviously be the kid's fault. duh. |
Rob [ url ]
said at 3:59 PM 03-15-2002:
Zing. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:04 PM 03-15-2002:
I was mauled by a dog as a child.
It torn both my lips open, totally open I mean, as in it's teeth left holes that went entirely through my lips, both the top and the bottom. It tore my left nostril, it ripped my left eyelid open and it split my chin from my cleft to under my jawbone.
It wasn't my fault.
Dogs are NOT allowed to run free because they are dangerous. A 100 pound dog is stronger than the average 150 pound person. Cats are not dangerous. A housecat could not kill a grown woman, as dogs did in SF not too long ago, no matter how ferocious it was (unless it gave her rabies, maybe). Cats can get killed but they can't hurt anyone but themselves (and things smaller than themselves). |
xmx said at 4:09 PM 03-15-2002:
this explains so much. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:22 PM 03-15-2002:
Way to make fun of someone over a traumatic experience.
It's pretty funny that Marcia got mugged, too, huh? Ha - ha! |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:24 PM 03-15-2002:
wow, someone is taking things *way* too personally. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:31 PM 03-15-2002:
I just get very tired of your online persona. You really seem like a totally different person on Killoggs then in person. I like the real one a lot better. |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:34 PM 03-15-2002:
this is absolutely zero online persona. the remark about the dog attack wasn't, either, it was an attempt by me to get you to at the very least crack a smile. this is something i feel 100% strongly about, josh. disagree or not, it's something i'm passionate about. as far as the "real" me, you've hung out with me like twice, dude. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:43 PM 03-15-2002:
I don't mean this thread specifically. I mean killoggs in general.
And by real i also don't mean real, in the real world... i guess I mean IM more, since I consider that private conversation, not this weird public forum like killoggs. There is definitely a different dynamic here.
You say things specifically to see how people react, and for shock value. That weirds me out. It's not really a bad thing - it just weirds me out and is alien to the way I do things (on here and elsewhere). You are also ultra combatative, which isn't weird, since a lot of other people are as well. |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:47 PM 03-15-2002:
i did not start this debate with you, however, as ultra combative. i flipped on neil because i came back from lunch and thoughts of dead animals make me sick to my stomach. it has gotten combative with you in the past few hours, and i really don't like it. and actually, i don't think i've been all that combative at all lately, with the exception of this post, which like i said is something i feel pretty passionately about. |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:32 PM 03-16-2002:
i feel 100% strongly that anyone who tries to force a wild cat to live indoors should be shot in the head.
some rural stray cats won't even try to come into a house and will freak out and scratch the fuck out of you if you try to bring them inside a house or car. |
anotherben said at 4:15 PM 03-15-2002:
yikes! that sucks. i got bit by a dog once and didnt want to go near one again for a long time. i didnt even bleed.
i was talking to some guy in brooklyn a while back and he showed me his massive dog attack scars on his leg. he said it happened in miami.. police dogs. i asked him what he was doing. he said nothing. somehow tho.. from the nature of his conversation.. i think that that attack was somehow his fault. |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:38 PM 03-16-2002:
i grew up next to this really white trash family. the entire family was into professional wressling. for a while they had a pit bull that they just let roam around. the dog wasn't that bad as most of the stray/roaming dogs where i lived went. it was annoying as fuck, though. it was a goddamned pit bull. |
Brad said at 10:40 PM 03-15-2002:
Damn, Josh! You never told me about that. You're lucky you healed without any scars, at least no noticeable ones. |
 | zack [email] said at 3:05 PM 03-16-2002:
Yeah, no scars...... Except for the one on his HEART!! sniff sniff. His baboon heart! |
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| josh [email] said at 6:15 PM 03-16-2002:
i love you, zack. |
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| josh [email] said at 6:15 PM 03-16-2002:
I have scars, they are just faint. |
 | mary [email] said at 11:25 PM 03-16-2002:
They're cute, I think. I like them. |
Emmaliegh said at 4:30 AM 03-16-2002:
I live in Carrolton, part of New Orleans. The neighbor who told me about Ashlee said the dogs cornered an old lady up the street. Apparently it was in the paper.
And since the attack Ashlee no longer wants to go out of doors. |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:28 PM 03-16-2002:
packs of dogs roam around ms. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:19 PM 03-15-2002:
contrary to popular belief, cats aren't "less happy" inside.
Back this up with facts.
My cats have the choice of being inside or out (we have a cat door). They come inside when it is cold, and to sleep. Also when they are hungry, or when they feel threatened. The rest of the time they are outside. Since they have the choice to do either, and they choose to be outside, it seems logical they like to be outside more than inside. |
 | brandon [email] said at 4:27 PM 03-15-2002:
I like to smoke constantly, if I had the choice I'd rather be smoking than not. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:34 PM 03-15-2002:
After about two to three hours of chain smoking, my money is on you stopping. (Maybe longer, maybe shorter, I've never been a smoker so I dunno how harsh it is on your lungs).
Now a cat wouldn't smoke at all. |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:38 PM 03-15-2002:
i bet brandon could get a cat to smoke. |
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| brandon [email] said at 4:44 PM 03-15-2002:
I'm just saying that sometimes what we want and what's good for us are two separate and opposed things. |
sean said at 6:34 PM 03-16-2002:
not true. mr.moneybags from milwaukee, wi. slept in a trash can, smoked roomates cigarettes. i shit you not. |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:32 PM 03-15-2002:
i have yet to encounter an indoor cat who wasn't perfectly happy. then again, we're getting into the blurry area of animal happiness, which is questionable. what matters here is that having indoor cats makes me happy.
and guess what else! according to the humane society, it's the best thing to do!
... Keep your cat indoors. Keeping your cat safely confined at all times is best for you, your pet, and your community. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:49 PM 03-15-2002:
Like I've said already in this thread, that's fine, if you get a "new" cat that isn't used to being outside.
But if you adopt a feral cat, that just won't fly.
Some of the cats we've adopted have gone from not sleeping indoors at all, not even letting you get within five feet of them, even swiping at you if you get to close, to letting you pet them and even sitting in your lap.
However, I do not think a feral cat would work well in an environment where you wouldn't let him go outside.
This is speaking from my experience in having semi-feral cats - the only kind of cats I've ever owned. We have never gotten kittens from a pound or another person, nor bought a cat. The only cats we have are semi-feral cats that adopted us. |
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| milky [email] said at 5:07 PM 03-15-2002:
I remember one of the cats you had. He was sweet but you couldn't touch him. He was his own entity. |
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| josh [email] said at 6:18 PM 03-15-2002:
That was probably "Boots". He's come a long way. He used to also piss on my shoes all the time. Luckily, not while I was wearing them. |
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| kiche [email] said at 1:45 PM 03-16-2002:
my cub scout den mother's family had an indoor racoon that they caught. it crapped all over everything and tore up their house. it was NOT HAPPY. there was no grey area. you take a wild animal and force it to stay in your house and it will go beserk. this is the law of nature. you take a semi-domesticated semi-feral animal such as a cat that has grown up in the wild and try to force it to live in your house you get a similar situation. not quite as dramatic but just as obvious. |
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| milky [email] said at 2:19 PM 03-15-2002:
I found a series of holes near the place I found her today, as I went to look around for stuff. She was just a few feet away. She'd made her last kill, too. I found a dead field mouse (with cat bites and scratch marks) in the same spot. It was tghe color of the grass so I didn't notice it last time. |
Courtney [ url ]
said at 2:32 PM 03-15-2002:
Love to Karma and Michelle and Milky... may she rest in peace and her memories live forever. |
Courtney [ url ]
said at 2:37 PM 03-15-2002:
I wanted to add...
http://www.cathospital.co.uk
This is a cute site where you can watch Frank the Cat, who is recuperating from a broken pelvis. His story, inluding x-rays, are posted. I actually find comfort in watching him just being a cat... grooming for long periods of time :) |
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| brandon [email] said at 3:17 PM 03-15-2002:
You know, early Christians used to keep outside cats in the superstitious believe that they would keep away Jews who tried to poison their wells. Are you trying to tell us something, Neilbert? Are you anti-semitic? Do you hate the Jewish peoples? |
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| milky [email] said at 3:23 PM 03-15-2002:
That was really NOT NEEDED, OK? |
neilbert said at 2:18 PM 03-17-2002:
No, I just hate Palesitinian Cats ;) |
Emmaliegh said at 3:27 PM 03-15-2002:
My deepest sympathies, Jeff. |
squirrelgirl said at 3:52 PM 03-15-2002:
I started crying when I read this post. I only got to see Karma a few times, but she was a beautiful, chubby kitty with a ton of personality. You and Michelle have my sympathies. |
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| zack [email] said at 3:53 PM 03-15-2002:
This thread has had some bizarre digressions!
My deepest symapthy to you & Michelle, Jeff. My cat Nemo (an indoor/outdoor) is my little baby boy & I would cry if he wasn't around for whatever reason. Luckily we have a big yard that he looks at as his territory.. He tends not to leave it. |
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| brandon [email] said at 4:05 PM 03-15-2002:
Granted we're arguing about the telic cause and the "happiness" of an animal that sleeps 80 percent of the time whether it's inside or outside. And, given, of course, that all these arguments have avoided cat over-population, feral cats, Feline Leukemia, an HIV like disease spread in an HIV like way among outside cats, it appears that keeping your cats outside is a gamble - it may live forever, it may get bitten by a water mocassin - like our Lab was - most likely it'll be the latter, or some other version of Le Marche de Mort pour Chats. Any time that you increase the risk like that in any situation, it's called "irresponsiblity" - like the people whose dogs mauled their neighbor: they're trying to argue that the animal wanted to be outside and was "sexually attracted" to the neighbor, whose I don't know cracker disrespect for its sexual advances necessitated that she be iced by the 150 lb cracker-grinder. Ok, well that's extreme. Point being, if you increase the risk your pet has to being killed, contracting a disease, infecting other animals, harming other animals or humans you're being an irresponsible pet owner (not a wild animal, cat's - like, cows, sheep, rooster's, dogs, and corn - are "domesticated"). It's a definition argument that your stupid to argue against if you do. "I refuse to admit to the blueness of that chair!" And furthermore, for those of you who think that your animal would "hang around" when left outside. Are you kidding? Sure they come back for food and water. But I've had cats from blocks and miles away show up on my doorstep, beat on my window, ruin paint jobs on cars, etc. Back home, my neighbors have indoor/outdoor cats that are constantly pregnant, toothless, disease ridden, always scrounging for food, and since they never learned how to hunt correctly, always killing off the robins, and cardinals, and mourning doves in great numbers, much more than they could ever eat.
Sooo, keep your cats inside, unless you've got that inner Steinbeck/Miller fascination with all the modes of kitty decay and putrefication can take. If that is you cup of tea, here's a site I like to frequent when I consider putting our cat outside. deadpussy.com
I'm really sorry, Milky, however I'm more concerned with the coyotes and rattlesnake dens at the even address across the street? Where the hell do you live? Secondly, get out of there! Haven't you seen the movie, the one with William Shatner - not the giant tarantula movie, but the other tarantula movie where it's tons of little tarantulas in a swarm, the one that ends with them breaking through the basement windows and covering Shatner in deadly spider bites? The very last scene is the camera panning away from the town to reveal that the spiders have wrapped the entire town in silk, to save it for a snack later-on. Grab your girlfriend, and get out - oh, and don't stop at the gas-station, or try to use the air-field - They're already there. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:27 PM 03-15-2002:
As long as you neuter/spay your cats, have a nice big area for them, dont live on a big road, and have a pet door for them to come in, they will be fine.
Neutered cats do not, in general, fight.
I think having an outside cat is a bad idea if you live in a city, but if you live in a rural or suburban area, and meet the conditions above, they should be fine. All my parents cat's have been. The two that have died died of natural causes... One just eventually died from massive birth defects, the other kitty cancer. The others are fine.
ALL were strays, from the neighborhood who adopted us. All of them already had a "taste" for the outdoors, and did not like being cooped up. To the point of crying incessently if they were kept in.
If you live in a cat-dangerous area, yeah, don't let your cats out. But not everyplace has rattlesnakes or roaming dog packs. |
anotherben said at 4:30 PM 03-15-2002:
there is a cat that uses my parents house as its base of operations. every once in a while it leaves a little dead thing on the porch..mouse, rat, squirrel, and the occasional rabbit. someone was telling me they were "gifts" from the cat. i think they were more like warnings. that cat is 12 or 13 years old thoug. and while she goes to the vet for regular check-ups, that is the only place she ever goes indoors. why does the caged bird sing? the house cat mew? or the leashed dog bark? because they want to be free. or maybe they are just hungry. |
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| milky [email] said at 4:41 PM 03-15-2002:
There's not much I can do about where we live. It is a nice place but it is not being developed fast enough. It was either here, in the Medical Center, or some ghetto (and the latter was not a consideration). I think some areas are even off limit for housing development.
Most of the development in San Antonio is happening away from the city...like in Baton Rouge...away from the ghettos.
The cat's death was unfortunate. Most of the time I would stay outside for over an hour looking for the cat. Then she just learned to hide better.
At any rate, what happened, happened. We're sorry and sad about it. But we can't afford to leave.
About cats: You try and take the best care of them that you can, and you do what you think is good for them or not good for them most of the time. Karma had her own little idiosyncrasies that we couldn't do much about (there were a lot of household dangers she got into that we could not control. We couldn't be at the home 24 hours a day, and we'd often come home to a odd scene with the cat caught up in something). She was a nice indoor/outdoor cat. Mostly indoors, though. What happened is over, and people complaining about cats isn't really comforting. I'm sorry.
And the constant talk about Jews and Catholics isn't funny anymore. I stopped complaining about SA. I just have to adapt to it. You acknoledge no God, so why even bring up anything religious at all? If religion is something you have no belief in, then why even mention it? Any religion? I don't understand. I don't like emo, and I've said so once or twice, but I don't drag it out like an ugly, uncircumcised penis everytime it is spoken about.
I know you mean well, as I try to mean well. I was hoping I could show this post to Michelle so she'd see that people she does not even know care about her situation. And no one could go and do that, leave nice stuff be.
BTW--That tarantula movie is one of my favorites. |
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| xmeredithx [email] said at 4:51 PM 03-15-2002:
well, now i feel bad that i didn't keep my mouth shut when i said i was going to at 9.40 this morning. and yeah, i started it again later in the afternoon by jumping on neilbert. i'm not sorry for that, but i'm shutting up about all this now. regardless of what i've said today, i do feel badly for milky.
at the heart of all this is the fact that pets dying sucks. finding your cat dead has got to be an awful experience. i wouldn't ever want to go through it. and my words of caution just got a little maniacal. |
neilbert said at 5:50 PM 03-15-2002:
XMX, I don't know why you attacked me because I have had outdoor cats. Like I said before, I did not get my cats at a "pets r us," these were strays, wildcats, that nobody else wanted. These cats could NOT be indoor cats, they were from the wild, fully capable of defending and taking care of themselves. If I wanted a 10 pound furball, I would have gotten one at the pet store, or shelter. I liked my cats sense of independence. I knew fully well that they would meet their maker one day, but that's the chance that I took. Sure, I could have locked them up in a room, but they would have been miserable. They would have lived long, miserable lives. It's like whenever I see the lion/tiger cage at a zoo. Sure the Lions are protected from being killed, and generally will live long lives, but you can see that their spirit is broken. Your arguement is valid, but it really only works for cats that are totally domesticated and have never been outdoors, and if the owner lives in a city, or non-rural area. |
Daniel said at 4:08 PM 03-15-2002:
for some strange reason i feel like having some chinese food for dinner tonight. |
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| brandon [email] said at 4:16 PM 03-15-2002:
Me too, that's odd. All I've been thinking about is orange-flavored beef from panda x-press. |
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| milky [email] said at 4:43 PM 03-15-2002:
That's funny...we almost had chinese last night. Seriously. And I see the humor...damn...lol. |
Daniel said at 4:23 PM 03-15-2002:
i have a solution to this problem. i will build a big bubble around my state. then all the cats here will be indoor cats. yes, that is what i will do. |
anotherben said at 4:36 PM 03-15-2002:
dont you live in jersey? that would be a great idea. |
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| josh [email] said at 4:55 PM 03-15-2002:
Is jersey as bad as everyone says? Everyone picks on it, but I've only driven through part of it. |
anotherben said at 5:05 PM 03-15-2002:
the northern part is pretty horrifying if you get lost at night and dont speak spanish. or look hispanic. |
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