She would have gotten up yesterday and gone to the March for Choice, for one. Which I am pretty sure she did, along with a couple hundred thousand other people. Among them: Me, Dianne, Bob, Rachel, and a ton of my Ms. boards friends, including this girl who turned out to be from Houma and went to LSMSA. Andy came up from New Orleans. Dianne picked fights with anti-choice hecklers. At one point, a bunch of women next to us were chanting "Keep your anti's/out of my panties." Poor Andy misheard at first, and his feelings were hurt.
As for Ms. Jett, Cory and I went to see her last night at the 9:30 club. She understands that rock-n-roll is still fundamentally about ass. And she covered a Replacements song.
One of the opening acts was The Casual Dots, a local band who I intend to go see again.
Bob [ url ] said at 1:35 PM 04-26-2004: My favorite is still the woman with the sign about how abortions cause breast cancer. People kept on walking up to her and asking how, and she would stutter out, "Well, ummm, it is, umm, believed by some..." as if she hadn't been expecting anyone to ask her to explain and was entirely unprepared. By the time I walked away she was explaining how multiple abortions cause AIDS.
Actually, the best part was probably going to work afterwards and seeing how Sparky's was a post-march mecca for locals (and a few out-of-towners)
Chipper said at 5:53 PM 04-26-2004: I wish I could have gone. Glad you were there! I bet it was a great feeling to see all those people who supported a woman's right to control her body.
ed [email] said at 6:36 PM 04-26-2004: Interesting.
A coupla/few years back, I distinctly remember the widespread reporting of a link between breast cancer and abortions. In the interest of full disclosure, it was something about which I was dismayed in a most personal manner. So I was all ready to come to this sign-lady's defense.
Unlike sign-lady, apparently, I have the power of the internet at my fingertips, and checked before I posted.
The claim was indeed made, as I remembered it... but now there's evidence that the claim was incorrect.
But, since most anti-abortionists are "behind the curve" (to put it nicely) when it comes to facts, I can't say I'm shocked.
MsMary said at 6:58 PM 04-26-2004: That "study" was always suspect, and not good science. (Gen, where are you when I need you?)
Fundamentally, though, why would there be any link between the two? I mean, if medically induced abortions *caused* breast cancer, what about spontaneous ones, i.e. miscarriages? What about a brief medical procedure involving my uterus could possibly lead to me having breast cancer? They might as well claim that cutting your toenails too short gives you ear infections.
ed [email] said at 7:11 PM 04-26-2004: Fundamentally why would there be a link? Hell, I honestly don't know. Fundamentally, why does broccoli make me vomit, when it's *so* good for me?
All I could think of, at the time, was that there was a widely-reported (although, in hindsight, factually incorrect) link between abortion and breast cancer. Since both were factors in the life of the person I loved more than anything in this world, it made an impact.
I'm not a scientist, nor do I play one on teevee. All I know is that what was being reported at the time made an impression on me. And not a good one. In retrospect, I'm relieved that this "link" is no longer believed, but the end result, sadly, is the same.
MsMary said at 7:18 PM 04-26-2004: That's exactly the kind of fears they anti-choice crowd is trying to play on, and it's what makes their behavior so gross. I mean, one of out three American women have had an abortion. Given that women don't feel all that rah-rah about the choice generally, it's extra shitty that they push this kind of extra guilt on us and the people who love us.
Hecklers aside, the march had a wonderful vibe. Lots of amazing women of all ages showing up in full force. Most of the anti-choicers were men, but they were grossly outnumbered by the pro-choice men who were there showing solidarity with their women. It gave me the warm and fuzzies, I'll tell ya.
ed [email] said at 7:36 PM 04-26-2004: I suppose it should be funny that most anti-abortionists are men or women past childbearing age, but it isn't.
A nice, hot cup of STFU should be available for anyone who espouses vociferous opposition to any medical procedure which they would never have to choose to undergo.
Bob [ url ] said at 10:14 PM 04-26-2004: One of the more amusing chants, usually brought out when we were passing counterprotesters, was: "When you get pregnant let us know/Pro-life men have got to go!"
I'm still sad that my "Pro-life: Go get one!" didn't catch on, though.
And on the upside, the whole thing was inspiring, especially since Dianne and I came at it from the wrong direction and had to walk down half the Mall to find everyone else... so many people!
ed [email] said at 7:40 PM 04-29-2004: Because I, sir, am a human.
I don't call myself a "christian", even though, I suppose, I am. I prefer to think of myself as someone who has found a relationship with my Savior, no matter what label is applied to it by people who either seek to ridicule it, or just plain don't have the same reference points.
But I *do* know what my beloved wife and I went through in our time together, and that what is done is done, what needed to be done was also done.
Part of the beauty (or the cop-out, depending on one's belief system) of what I have now is simple: It's all part of a plan that I may never fully understand. People somehimes do the wrong thing for the right reason.
I/we did that.
I can deal with that fact, because of what I believe to be true.
If you feel compelled to argue against and/or ridicule that, feel free.
bradley said at 8:09 PM 04-29-2004: OK the faker comment was just to get your attention. I want to discuss. I'll be civil.
What denomination are you? I ask because I've been a part of the catholic church, and now am a lutheran. I've never heard of a christian church that supports abortion, but I know that there are a lot of denominations with alot of different interpretations of the bible. The church that I am now a part of beleives that the only source of God's word is the bible, and takes that word fairly literally. Abortion is specifically denounced there. Is this a personal belief, or your church's belief?
ed [email] said at 8:42 PM 04-29-2004: I belong to a non-denominational church. Labels ("Catholic" "Lutheran" "Baptist" "Mormon", et. al.,) mean nothing to me. I am not part of a "religion", nor is "religion" a part of me. What matters to me - and Him - is our personal relationship.
Figuring out that part of the picture took me almost 30 years. Doctrine, dogma, jihad... they mean nothing to me. What is important is my own personal acceptance of (and relationship with) God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.
I don't believe in any church, even though I dearly love the one I am currently a member of. The church is not what one (IMHO) needs to put their faith in.
And just as several of the 12 disciples were criminals (murderers included, mind you)... their sins were washed away. They did wrong things in their ignorance. They were forgiven.
I am in no way comparing myself to them, other than in the facts that I am human (as were they) and I can be forgiven (as were they).
Again, your mileage may vary, depending on your belief system. I won't hold yours against you. Can you (honestly) say the same?
bradley said at 8:58 PM 04-29-2004: I'm not saying "perform an abortion - go to hell." I believe that _all_ sins are forgiven by what Jesus went through. At the same time, the Old Testament is there as a guideline on how to live, or how to try to live(I realize no-one can follow all of the rules).
I gather from your first response that you and your wife had a baby aborted. Just another sin - already forgiven, right? Why perpetuate it by supporting future abortions?
ed [email] said at 10:13 PM 04-29-2004: IMHO, the 10 OT commandments were unacheivable. It was said (and I'll quote scripture and verse, if you so desire) that all men would fall short of fulfilling those 10 rules, which is why Jesus walked the earth in the first place. Those 10 rules were supplanted by God's one rule (accept Jesus as the only way to salvation), and Jesus' one rule ("love one another").
I'll go into much further detail, if you wish, but these are the core of my belief system.
Condemning others for making the same choices I/we made in the past would seem, at best, hypocritical, no? I'm not here to judge, or decide, for others. Whether you think any given abortion is done for a "reason" or for an "excuse" is immaterial. It is not your place - nor is it mine - to pass judgement.
ed [email] said at 12:26 PM 04-30-2004: Sure. We all fall short, man. Sometimes we do the wrong things for reasons that are right. It's still sin, which is why forgiveness is needed.
I am not going to denounce others for making the same choices I have made. I'm certainly not going to try to deprive them of having the right to make that choice.
If God didn't want there to be choices, there wouldn't be. Choosing to do the right thing would be impossible if there were no alternatives, wouldn't you agree? Why must humans always try to take control of what belongs to God? (That last one's rhetorical - I already know the answer.)
bradley said at 12:33 PM 04-30-2004: Fair enough. I just wanted to see where you were coming from on the whole christian/abortion thing. It surprised me that you condoned abortion after some of the hard-core christian things I've seen you post on here.
So what about this case - a murderer condoning the murder of more people, as opposed to denouncing it. What parallels do you see in that?
ed [email] said at 12:43 PM 04-30-2004: I have posted hardcore christian stuff? What, like saying that gay marriages were fine by me? Seriously, I can't imagine to what you might be referring.
Your hypothetical is irrelevant, because I'm not saying person x cannot condemn person y for doing the same thing that person x did. What I'm saying is that I personally refuse to condemn anyone else for something I personally have done. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
bradley said at 12:55 PM 04-30-2004: .......................................
That was for space.
I was referring to your whole "enlightenment", or whatever you want to call it when you recently became more devoted to God.
So love the sinner, hate the sin. Abortion being the sin, why would you not hate abortion? I have lied and stolen things before. I'll do it again. I'm not going to promote lying and stealing by others, though.
I'm not talking about condemning anyone. I think we've established that we both believe the same thing as far as saving grace goes.
Remember, you are talking to civil-bradley. I'm not trying to cut you down or anything.
ed [email] said at 3:08 PM 04-30-2004: I have lied and stolen things before. I'll do it again. I'm not going to promote lying and stealing by others, though.
And not once have I "promoted" abortion. Ever. Even before I found a relationship with God. You know what? I *do* hate abortion. But it's not my place (nor is it yours) to make that decision for other people.
I don't know how I can possibly make my views on the issue any clearer.
ed [email] said at 12:47 PM 04-30-2004: And just a semantics issue, but condoning is not the same as not condemning, at least in my mind. I'm not an abortion enthusiast, by any means.
bradley said at 12:57 PM 04-30-2004: OK this is what I'm looking for. You don't condemn anyone for doing it, but you wouldn't necessarily encourage anyone to do it. Right?
josh [email] said at 2:37 PM 04-30-2004: Where are you going with this? I wouldn't encourage anyone to do it, either and I am an atheist and pro-choice. It's their life and I'm not in their shoes. I don't feel it's my place to tell anyone how to live their life - either by pushing them one way or another.
ed [email] said at 3:12 PM 04-30-2004: I would never encourage *or* discourage the notion of abortion. It's an intensely personal decision, and none of my business. I would certainly encourage the person as best I could, but by that, I mean support them, regardless of the decision they ultimately make.
bradley said at 4:00 PM 04-30-2004: OK so I feel obliged to give my feelings. I feel it is wrong, based on the bible and my own moral compass. I would definitely discourage someone from doing it, however I never go out looking for opportunities to do so.
GREAT!! This discussion ended beautifully. I'm not trying to change anyone's viewpoint, and I'm not even considering changing mine based on any of your arguments. Peace out!
ed [email] said at 7:55 PM 04-30-2004: I rarely (if ever) go into a discussion expecting to change someone's opinion. That's why it's called a discussion.
I have expressed me, and you have expressed you.
Neither of us had a life-changing experience, nor did I expect we would. But we both got to state our views as best we could. I don't think you are intrinsically "wrong" - I just think you have a differing opinion.
mary [email] said at 10:35 PM 04-29-2004: I am loathe to break my no-responding-to-Bradley rule, but ... could you please tell me where the bible specifically denounces abortion? I missed that one, somehow, in my years of fundie Christian sunday school and summer bible school.
bradley said at 11:45 PM 04-29-2004: You mean aside from "Thou shalt not kill."?
I said that I'd be civil to Ed, but not you. I don't care if it is your post. you can go hug a female tree for all I care.
I realize that you dislike me on this website. Don't think for a minute that I'm going to end up in the same boat as Wade. I've seen your picture by your column ... you know where I'm going with this.
mary [email] said at 11:55 PM 04-29-2004: I dislike you on this site because you are consistently a jerk to me. No other reason.
However, I meant that as a sincere question, about the abortion/bible issue. We kill lots of things, despite that rule, and consider it ethically justified. For example, self-defense. I wondered if you had another verse.
katiecantlogin said at 12:30 AM 04-30-2004: i'm pretty sure:
1. trees are sexless
2. you are in no danger of ending up in a boat that is even remotely in the same body of water as wade's boat
3. "thou shalt not kill" refers to people. viable ones who are already alive. it obviously doesn't apply to animals, since the dietary laws in deuteronomy imply that it's ok to kill animals ... it obviously doesn't apply to chosen babies of god, since god commanded abraham to kill isaac as a test of faith. and god apparently approved of the slaughter of tons of indigenous arabs after the exodus.
it seems to me god's all about killing, if you love the old testament that much.
by the way, your debate skills ("i am uncomfortable with what you say, so i'm going to imply that you're ugly, nyah nyah nyah") - simply stunning.
bradley said at 9:09 AM 04-30-2004: 1. - you must be some kind of plant biologist to be this smart.
2. - I think I already addressed the boat-danger issue. I said there was no danger from my end. I'm sorry if I made you say "Like OH MY GOD!" and feel the need to defend Mary. She's a big girl.
3.I'm glad you are "pretty sure" that fetuses magically come to life upon exiting through the vagina.
katiecantlogin said at 11:17 AM 04-30-2004: 1. no, i'm a chef, and that's why the "pretty sure" caveat was thrown in there. apparently trees are indeed engendered. shame on me. i'm so fucking stupid.
2. what i took issue with was the implication that anyone would even consider the possibility of you being in that boat. which is patently ridiculous. and i didn't feel the need to defend mary (believe me, i know exactly how big she is), i felt the need to attack you, because ignorance, especially when fueled by deist righteousness, makes me very, very angry.
3. i didn't say a goddamned word about magic fetuses coming to life. what i said was that the bible condones killing - a point which you did not address. as far as the magic fetus bullshit goes, that's an extremely objective issue about which i'm not going to argue with you. i believe what i believe, and while i may think those who don't see it my way are assholes, i'm not going to try to change your mind, because it isn't worth my time. as long as i still get to make the ultimate decision of whether or not to have a clump of rapidly dividing cells in my uterus, your misguided set of beliefs about when life begins are of absolutely no concern to me.
milky [email] said at 12:11 PM 04-30-2004: Katie, you do seem to chime in with Mary and it seems like double teaming. It's just an observation, not a judgement.
bradley said at 12:29 PM 04-30-2004: Milky - exactly.
Katie - basically your only point was that you chimed in b/c my statements and "ignorance" pissed you off, and you are some sort of social police who needs to set me straight.(even though you don't posess the skills to log on to killoggs)
If you have spent significant time studying the bible, and feel that it condones killing innocent human beings, I hereby retract my argument with you - as I have no response to that.
amy [email] said at 3:57 PM 04-30-2004: This is just an aside but when you are pregnant there is a definitive moment when you know there is something alive in you. One day you are just fat, the next day you carry life. For me it was somewhere around the 20th week.
For the first trimester, when most abortions are performed, I was thoroughly mentally unconvinced of my condition. I think this is one of nature's failsafes. 20 percent or more of all pregnancies miscarry in the first trimester, many times right after conception before a woman even \knows she pregnant.
josh [email] said at 10:14 AM 04-30-2004: Dude this is so weird, Bradley is being civil and discussing something... Is this because The Brandon has left?
amy [email] said at 12:11 AM 04-30-2004: It sucks that in this world we have to fight so hard for something so horrible (abortion) because if weaken even a little bit the men in power will take it ALL away from us.
brianbibbly [email] said at 10:20 AM 04-30-2004: Of course we are all waiting for one misstep by the female populous, then our master trap will be sprung!
amy [email] said at 3:47 PM 04-30-2004: I said men in POWER, not you chumps. Men rather than "people" sounded more ominous.
I think in general both the far left and far right and far anything have to push an outlandish agenda in order for the pendulum to sway to the middle. For some reason no one is willing to start out in the middle and debate the merits of an argument from there. For instance, I am sure most prochoicers don't like the idea of abortion and wish there were more alternatives that were less extreme (prevention of pregnancy, the morning after pill, adoption, etc) but they have to be careful what they say about abortion in public because as soon as they say of course abortion is a horrible thing the prolifers will jump on it like Josh on gravy biscuits and it will be all over with. I actually don't know what prolifers secretly think but won't express.
The polemic must have slogans that fit neatly on protest signs. "I really dislike fighting for oil and my brothers in uniform are in danger but we need to help those poor Iraqis and wouldnt it be great to have a democracy in the Middle East but that's naive,...." won't fit.
ed [email] said at 6:23 PM 04-30-2004: BBS (back before surgery) I coulda whooped ya both. Biscuits 'n gravy were my absolute favorite food. I still make a mean sausage gravy, even though I never cook it just for me, so it's rare that I make it. But it's like riding a bike. Once you know how, you never forget.
Well, unless you get amnesia or Alzheimer's or something. And, actually, Alzheimer's probably wouldn't take that away. My aunt who had it remembered stuff from 50 years ago like it was yesterday. She just didn't know who she was, or who the people around her were. Nobody -including herself - looked like she expected them to.
amy [email] said at 4:30 PM 04-30-2004: It is really hard to find biscuits and gravy in the southwest. When I was preggers I wanted them every morning. Had to go to Cracker Barrell.
I love the image of little bits of biscuit and goo in the corner of Josh's mouth.
ed [email] said at 6:25 PM 04-30-2004: See, where I come from, goo is a term for something that would not be enticing for most men to lick. Especially from the corner of another man's mouth.
*myriam said at 7:18 PM 04-30-2004: In my experience mothers have a different attitude toward goo than most people do.
I've seen countless mothers feed their children babyfood, then in between baby-mouthfuls they finish off whatever was left of the food on the little spoon. With BabyMouthGoo all over it.
amy [email] said at 1:10 AM 05-01-2004: Sometimes when I'm having no luck cleaning Flan's face with a napkin or somesuch I just lean over and give her a good lick. Works like a charm.
amy [email] said at 4:58 PM 04-30-2004: Go to your local Cracker Barrell-usually found by the interstate. In order to be truly Southern you must break up little pieces of sausage in it and eat it with a side of either sliced tomatoes or cantaloupe.
